Project Metagame Workshop

berry

what kind
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
its ya boi, back at it again with another metagame idea
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SwapForce
*name inspired by Skylanders; no actually the whole metagame is inspired by it lol

Metagame Premise:
Pokemon in the 1st slot of a party will share its HP/Atk/Def, and primary typing with the 2nd slot, and vice versa, the 2nd slot will share its SpA/SpD/Spe, and it's secondary typing with the 1st slot. 3rd/4th and 5th/6th have the same relationship.

If the even numbered slots are monotype, they do not give a type to the odd numbered slots. (Refer to

-OU Based + Standard OU Clauses
-Tera Clause (no Terastelizing)
For example, let's take two Pokemon: Ursaluna and Diancie.
View attachment 539932
View attachment 539933
Ursaluna would pass Ground type, HP-130, Atk-140, and Def-105 to Diancie.
Diancie would pass Fairy type, SpA-100, SpD-150, and Spe-50 to Ursaluna.

The new Pokemon (plural) would look like this:
Ursaluna and Diancie both have Ground/Fairy type, and a spread of 130/140/105/100/150/50 - BST 675
View attachment 539959
They both keep their original abilities, meaning Guts could be abused on Ursaluna while Clear Body can help Diancie ignore Intimidate drops.
They both keep their original movesets, meaning Headlong Rush and Play Rough are now STAB on Ursaluna, and Diancie can abuse a more respectable 140 Base Atk stat for its signature Diamond Storm.


Here's another two Pokemon: Cloyster and Florges.
View attachment 540037
View attachment 540038
The new Pokemon (plural) would look like this:
Cloyster and Florges would both have a stat spread of 50/95/180/112/154/75 - BST 666
Cloyster would stay a Water/Ice type, since Florges is monotype and cannot pass a type that it doesn't have.
Florges, however, would become a Water type.
View attachment 540039


Finally, let's look at Orthoworm and Iron Moth.
View attachment 540047
View attachment 540048
The new Pokemon (plural) would look like this:
Ursaluna and Diancie both have Steel/Poison type, and a spread of 70/85/145/140/110/110 - BST 660
View attachment 540053

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Pokemon with solid HP/Atk/Def can get better stats through other mons, and likewise pass solid stats to them as well. Great Tusk and Ursaring are great examples of this. Both pass Ground type, and solid HP/Atk/Def, or for another example, Kingambit and Ting Lu.

On the other side of the spectrum, SpA/SpD/Spe specialized Pokemon would appreciate the boosts Pokemon like previously stated give. Iron Moth, Hatterene, even mons like Jolteon could see usage.
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Potential Bans and Threats:
Both Pokémon are simply just threats in my eyes, but if there's anything that seems problematic with this metagame, feedback is appreciated.

The ultimate wall, but without that crippling 65 SpDef stat. You could use Clodsire to pass a commendable 100 SpDef stat onto it, as well as a Ground type if the team is built with Dondozo before Clodsire (or any other SpDef passers for that matter.).


The sheer power of Hoopa-Unbound and it's solid stat spread can not only be passed to other mons, but its own weakness in its Defense stat can be cut out with this metagame.


Q&A-
Q - What happens if I lose a Pokemon? Does my Pokemon lose the stats they were swapped?
A- Stats are determined before the game begins, so if you lose your 6th slot Pokemon, you won't lose the stats they passed to the 5th slot, for example.

Q - What happens if I have an Odd-numbered/incomplete team?
A- The Pokemon that can't swap with the even slot would not change.

Questions for the Community:
  • What are your thoughts on type swapping? I thought it'd be fun to introduce more than just BST swapping, so type swapping was a last minute inclusion.
  • What other Pokémon could you see becoming a threat that I could have missed?
Couple of comments on this, starting with some typing-based questions. What would be the course of action if two pokemon with alternating typings were used? My example is Heatran and Rotom-H: would they both be pure fire-type?
1691107662009.png


I read at the bottom that you kind of arbitrarily introduced type swaps. I'm indifferent against the change, just now this format clashes a bit with other type-changing metas like Bonus Type or Camomons as well now. Is there a reasoning besides adding another "thing" to be swapped around? Keep in mind this was already occupying a similar niche to stat-changing metas like GG or Flipped (not the exact niche obviously, but from experience, if there's too many "stat changing metas" usually most are just cast by the wayside in favor of whichever one has the most support from the beginning).

My worry with something like this is it tries to be a bit too "flashy" and ends up competing with a wider spectrum of metas than originally expected. In the past (like gens 5 and 6) this was super common practice to just let something like this through, where it would get an initial wave of interest riding on "look at how broken X is!" then fail to gather any attention again. With multiple options for type-changing and stat-changing metas already on the om roster, something that tries to do both (and makes building even more difficult at that) takes a lot of effort to launch and actually keep up.
 

IMakeNoSense

hey it's that one guy who makes art
is a Pre-Contributor
Couple of comments on this, starting with some typing-based questions. What would be the course of action if two pokemon with alternating typings were used? My example is Heatran and Rotom-H: would they both be pure fire-type?
1691107662009.png
Correct, both monotype Fire.

I read at the bottom that you kind of arbitrarily introduced type swaps. I'm indifferent against the change, just now this format clashes a bit with other type-changing metas like Bonus Type or Camomons as well now. Is there a reasoning besides adding another "thing" to be swapped around? Keep in mind this was already occupying a similar niche to stat-changing metas like GG or Flipped (not the exact niche obviously, but from experience, if there's too many "stat changing metas" usually most are just cast by the wayside in favor of whichever one has the most support from the beginning).

My worry with something like this is it tries to be a bit too "flashy" and ends up competing with a wider spectrum of metas than originally expected. In the past (like gens 5 and 6) this was super common practice to just let something like this through, where it would get an initial wave of interest riding on "look at how broken X is!" then fail to gather any attention again. With multiple options for type-changing and stat-changing metas already on the om roster, something that tries to do both (and makes building even more difficult at that) takes a lot of effort to launch and actually keep up.
That's... fair. It's harder to make a new OM now than it was in, say, XY.
it tries to be a bit too "flashy"
This part in particular is partially my problem- I'm more of an ideas guy than I am anything else; so if these don't stick then I get it.

The idea of "swapping" was mostly my justification for it being a type AND stat changing meta; to where it adopts two kinds of different OM "genres" and makes a coherent metagame. It was mostly based around the question of, "What if this Pokemon had the stats like this Pokemon?" like it couldn't already do in GG for example. Iron Moth especially, what if you could fix both it's HP and Defense instead of picking just one?

That's also where the Skylanders: Swap Force inspiration came in: where you can take half of a figurine and place it ontop of another to make 2 separate characters.
1691110654432.png


I'm aware that justifying this meta as a whole is hard to even consider, but if there's any ideas to make it stand out enough then I'm all ears. Again, I'm more of a creative guy haha (that's why I made a lot of om banners!!!)
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Frantic Fusions is incredibly similar to Inheritance, and it still got approved. You have a shot, buddy.
They aren't similar, while you take from another mon, you dont take the movepool, and you can keep your own abilities, if you want to compare it to anything Cross Evo is more similar but has a completely different pool of combination, on top of the movepool thing. That makes it distinct enough from other formats while still interesting.
 
Double Draft Randoms
  • Metagame premise. The basic concept is that this is a 6v6 format, in which at the beginning you and your opponent are give 2 randomized pokemons of equal strength/viability, and you have to pick one of them, and the other pokemon would go to the opponents team. You have to do this till you and your opponent have picked 3 mons each so both teams have 6 complete mons.
    • What does viability mean here? - Eg. You are given two options. An overqwil with toxic spikes, or a torkoal with stealth rocks, and you would have to decide which you value more.
  • Strategy. As you get to teambuild to some extent, the basic strategy would be to pick mons that cover each others weaknesses.
    • Eg. Your team has really strong attackers, but they have no switch in capabilities, so it would be best to start picking more bulky walls that can come in, take a hit and threaten status moves.
  • Potential bans and threats. As this is a randomized format, we cant really argue about bans and threats here, but as the metagame progresses, there would be much needed balance changes to levels, and some mons would be given a more diverse moveset than we usually see in regular random battles
  • Questions for the community.
    1. Q - Will the 2 given mons be completely randomized?
      A - No, the will not be 'completely' randomized, rather they would be adjusted so the two options you get are of equal BST/Level. so you wont have to worry about your opponent picking chi-yu and giving you delibird.
    2. Q - Will I know what my opponent has given me before the match has started?
      A - Yes, If you have already picked a mon yourself, you will be able to see what the opponent has given you. This is done so that you can strategize better and encourage some form of teambuilding. But, lets say the opponent has picked all 3 mons, and you have picked only one mon, you will only be able to see the one mon that the opponent picked as their first choice. you will not be able to see the other mons until you have picked them yourself.
    3. Q - How is this different from the regular random battles we already have?
      A - This metagame is a more balanced version of the regular randbats, as this would give players a chance to pick the options they like, rather than it being completely picked for you, so you wont lose to that one blissey that just walls the entire team because you didnt have any physical attackers.
    4. Q - How will the timer work in this metagame?
      A - You will be given a beginning timer of around 20 seconds to pick each pokemon, adding upto a total of 1 minute for all three, then the game will be played on a regular match timer. This 20 second beginning timer cannot be turned off. If you picked a mon in less than 20 seconds, then the additional time will carry over.
    5. Q - What happens if I fail to pick a mon in my allotted time?
      A - If you don't pick a pokemon in the 20 seconds given to you, the game will randomly select one pokemon by itself, and then it will proceed naturally to the next option.
 

Wes8888

Goon of the OM variety
is a Pre-Contributor
1MSS
Premise: All 4 of a pokemon's moves combine to create 1 new move

The way this works is as follows:
Slot 1 determines Power and Priority (if this is a status move then the base power will be zero)
Slot 2 determines Type and Category (if the category is status the move will not do any damage regardless of what's in slot one so be careful what you put here)
Slot 3 determines Accuracy and PP
Slot 4 determines Secondary Effect (if this is a status move, it's effect becomes the secondary effect of the new move)

Example Strategies:

:sv/moltres-galar:
Moltres-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Dark Pulse
- Aerial Ace
- Nasty Plot

This moveset will result in a Dark type special move with 110 bp, perfect accuracy, 32 pp, and the secondary effect of boosting SpA by 2 stages. Choice Specs because choice lock is irrelevant when you only have one move.

:sv/clodsire:
Clodsire @ Assault Vest
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Bulldoze
- Tackle
- Recover

This would result in a Ground type Physical move with 100 bp, 100 acc, 56 pp and the secondary effect of healing Clodsire for 50% max hp. Clodsire can afford to run Assault Vest since this move is an attack, making it an effective counter measure for special setup sweepers.

Clauses: Standard OM clauses

Annilhape
Arceus (All Forms)
Calyrex-Shadow
Calyrex-Ice
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Dialga
Dialga-Origin
Eternatus
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Koraidon
Kyogre
Magearna
Miraidon
Palafin
Palafin-Hero
Palkia
Palkia-Origin
Rayquaza
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Arena Trap
Shadow Tag
Shed Tail
Last Respects
King's Rock

Setup moves
Terastalization

FAQ

None yet but I'll add some as you guys ask questions.
 
I think most status moves have very powerful effects that are balanced by them not doing any type of damage. That 4th moveslot option allowing status moves should go.

Even with that, this makes every mon a One-trick Pony. This meta doesn’t build upon the base game, but rather removes from it. There’s no switch-ups, no coverage, no strategy, just attack or switch. This meta sounds very shallow, and although it could be fun for the first few games, after everyone finds out which mons/moves to spam, the meta will dry up even more. If you see a mon switch in, it will 100% be using this move.
 
1MSS
Premise: All 4 of a pokemon's moves combine to create 1 new move

The way this works is as follows:
Slot 1 determines Power and Priority (if this is a status move then the base power will be zero)
Slot 2 determines Type and Category (if the category is status the move will not do any damage regardless of what's in slot one so be careful what you put here)
Slot 3 determines Accuracy and PP
Slot 4 determines Secondary Effect (if this is a status move, it's effect becomes the secondary effect of the new move)

Example Strategies:

:sv/moltres-galar:
Moltres-Galar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Dark Pulse
- Aerial Ace
- Nasty Plot

This moveset will result in a Dark type special move with 110 bp, perfect accuracy, 32 pp, and the secondary effect of boosting SpA by 2 stages. Choice Specs because choice lock is irrelevant when you only have one move.

:sv/clodsire:
Clodsire @ Assault Vest
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Bulldoze
- Tackle
- Recover

This would result in a Ground type Physical move with 100 bp, 100 acc, 56 pp and the secondary effect of healing Clodsire for 50% max hp. Clodsire can afford to run Assault Vest since this move is an attack, making it an effective counter measure for special setup sweepers.

Clauses: Standard OM clauses

Annilhape
Arceus (All Forms)
Calyrex-Shadow
Calyrex-Ice
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Dialga
Dialga-Origin
Eternatus
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Koraidon
Kyogre
Magearna
Miraidon
Palafin
Palafin-Hero
Palkia
Palkia-Origin
Rayquaza
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Arena Trap
Shadow Tag
Shed Tail
Last Respects
King's Rock

Setup moves
Terastalization

FAQ

None yet but I'll add some as you guys ask questions.
This feels a lot like Linked from Gen 8 where the first two moves are linked.
I think that Linked has a lot more variety and is more interesting in general. Mashing all four moves just seems to chaotic.
 
Retromons
Premise: Every mechanic/move in game goes to it's earliest known incarnation. excluding bugs but Pokemon learn set. abilities and stats stay the same.

Some notable examples of changes from standard S/V gameplay.

All stats can be maxed out with Ev's

Crits are based off speed.

Hyper beam/equivalents doesn't recharge if it ko's a mon

Explosion/selfdestruct halfs opponents defense but is 130/170 base power

No physical special split'

Recovery Moves have there old PP

Wigglytuff and Clefairy are just normal types.

Sleep Talk can call rest and restore your hp

Only one layer of spikes.

Whirlwind/Roar fail

All abilities will be put to there earliest equivalent.

Drizzle, Drought and Sand Stream are permanent.

Intimidate is not blocked by inner focus.

Oblivious does not block Taunt

Shadow Tag can trap other shadow tag users and ghosts (Wobbufet if released in game will be banned from holding leftovers)

Snow warning is permanent

Steel resists ghost and dark types.

Prankster can affect dark types.

Same type status Immunity

High crit moves always crit.

Haze clears status conditions.

knock off is 20 base power and special.

defog doesn't clear hazards or screens

Terrain gives a 1.5x boost

Aerielate/Pixilate gives a 1.5x boost.

Gems boost damage by 1.5x (Only gem available is normal)

Pokemon have natdex learnsets (Including dexited moves if allowed)

Pursuit is special


These are just a few of the notable mechanics/moves that would be changed.




Some notable sets/mons that would be on the radar.

/


Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Ghost/Dark
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast
- U-turn

Zoroark is interesting/may potentially need to be banned because with no team preview, it can easily come in and Ko/sweep a weakened team with the one turn of set up it gets for free.



Azelf @ Focus Sash/Normal Gem
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Steel
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Taunt
- Explosion

Lead Azelf will be back. with rapid spin/mortal spin being the only way to remove hazards, it will be one of the best leads in the game. Not only that but with Gen 1 explosion, while not hitting as hard in gen 2 onwards, it's still using essentially a 340 base power move.




Gholdengo @ Covert Cloak/Heavy-Duty-Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Good as Gold
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Fighting
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Make It Rain
- Recover

Gholdengo now becomes and even better spin-blocker. Due to knock off no longer hitting it hard from the likes of great tusk/having maxed ev's. However, with only one layer of spikes, SR and gen 1 poison/badly poisoned being available it also becomes less valuable as well.



Dragapult @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ghost
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt/Hydro Pump
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Dragapult @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Att / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Ghost
Timid Nature
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- U-turn

Dragapult, will have a ludicrously high crit chance with that speed stat. However, it trades STAB physical Ghost type moves in shadow ball, for special dragon type moves so it might be manageable.



Kingambit @ Lum Berry/Air Baloon
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dark
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head

A no team preview Kingambit seems terrifying at first... At least until you remember it gets no physical dark stab/sucker punch and thus becomes so much more manageable.



Great Tusk @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Tera Type: Water
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Spinner/Knock off
- Rapid Spin

Great tusk still continues to be one of/if not the best spinner in the metagame which will be important since defog does nothing in this meta, since entry hazard chip + permanent sand will add up over a long game.





Iron Treads @ Occa Berry/Leftovers/
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk
- Rapid Spin

The other best spinner in the tier for more defensive teams, with Gen 2 sleep talk mechanics, and steel resisting dragons it will make a good glue for a lot of defensive or balance/bulky offensive teams.


Some things to work out.

Potential bans suchs as Zoroark or Mew who with no team preview/older mechanics can break the game in half.

Voting on whether Tera should be apart of it or banned like other mechanics like Megas's, Z-moves or Dynamax.

How to handle Fairy types with the physical/special split.

Options for that is to make it special like the rest of the eeveelution types.

Or make Fairy type moves uniquely subject to the physical special split.
 
This is frequently rejected premise—it is far too subjective and complex to work as an OM.

How is it subjective whenever there is a question you just relegate it to the earliest version of that mechanic?

I understand the complexity argument a bit but it's definitely not subjective at all with the exception of the Fairy type which if you wanted objectivity we'd make it able to attack physically or specially.
 
Last edited:
How is it subjective whenever there is a question you just relegate it to the earliest version of that mechanic?
The subjective comes in when two things whose earliest versions come from different generations come into conflict. For example:
  • In Steel's earliest version, it resisted Psychic, so Steel should be resistant to Psychic.
  • In Psychic's earliest version, it was only resisted by itself, so Psychic should not be resisted by Steel.
These two interpretations of how Steel should interact with Psychic are mutually exclusive.
 
I'm sure there's better examples than this as I figured it would be very obvious that Steel would resist Psychic.

Since Psychic has never not been resisted by Steel as long as Steel has been around?

Like if ya wanna find subjective things ya can point at much better examples like the aforementioned Fairty type and Physcial Special split.
 
How is it subjective whenever there is a question you just relegate it to the earliest version of that mechanic?

I understand the complexity argument a bit but it's definitely not subjective at all with the exception of the Fairy type which if you wanted objectivity we'd make it able to attack physically or specially.
All of these are subjective choices:
Hyper beam/equivalents doesn't recharge if it ko's a mon

No physical special split'

Wigglytuff and Clefairy are just normal types.

All abilities will be put to there earliest equivalent.

Snow warning is permanent

Gems boost damage by 1.5x (Only gem available is normal)

Pokemon have natdex learnsets (Including dexited moves if allowed)

How to handle Fairy types with the physical/special split.
Blast Burn didn't exist in Gen 1, so when it was introduced it always had a recharge turn.

When Jet Punch was first introduced, it was a physical attack.

Abilities did not exist in Gen 1.

Ninetales-Alola never had the ability to set permanent hail. (And on a somewhat related note, there was no point at which hail and snow both existed, but Snow Warning initially set hail while snowscape has always set snow.)

When the Fairy type was first introduced, Wigglytuff and Clefairy had STAB on their Fairy attacks.

The other gems were obtainable when they were first introduced.

Many Pokemon did not have their full natdex learnset when they were first introduced; for instance Charizard did not learn Blast Burn in gen 1.

As you noted, there are several ways that the physical/special split could be reconciled with the Fairy type.
 
All of these are subjective choices:

Blast Burn didn't exist in Gen 1, so when it was introduced it always had a recharge turn.

When Jet Punch was first introduced, it was a physical attack.

Abilities did not exist in Gen 1.

Ninetales-Alola never had the ability to set permanent hail. (And on a somewhat related note, there was no point at which hail and snow both existed, but Snow Warning initially set hail while snowscape has always set snow.)

When the Fairy type was first introduced, Wigglytuff and Clefairy had STAB on their Fairy attacks.

The other gems were obtainable when they were first introduced.

Many Pokemon did not have their full natdex learnset when they were first introduced; for instance Charizard did not learn Blast Burn in gen 1.

As you noted, there are several ways that the physical/special split could be reconciled with the Fairy type.
Fair enough I'll take the L
 
Looking to potentially revive a Gen 8 metagame I started w/ some friends last gen, Broken Record: in which a Pokemon can hold a TR to get the move it contains as a fifth move. TRs are now TMs in Gen 9, but the premise would still work. But given the more dynamic nature of the metagame now with Tera and lessened recovery, a few questions arise:
- Does the vast amount of new TMs (up to 171 from Gen 8's 100 TRs), even with some that won't be used, make the metagame too volatile?
- How should Tera and "Broken-Recorded" moves interact, if at all? Tera Blast by itself has given some Pokemon in OU coverage that has pushed them into brokenness; how much worse would it be when, for example, something could Tera Water and start firing off Hydro Pumps?

I'm happy to hear any thoughts, feedback, or ideas!
 
Looking to potentially revive a Gen 8 metagame I started w/ some friends last gen, Broken Record: in which a Pokemon can hold a TR to get the move it contains as a fifth move. TRs are now TMs in Gen 9, but the premise would still work. But given the more dynamic nature of the metagame now with Tera and lessened recovery, a few questions arise:
- Does the vast amount of new TMs (up to 171 from Gen 8's 100 TRs), even with some that won't be used, make the metagame too volatile?
- How should Tera and "Broken-Recorded" moves interact, if at all? Tera Blast by itself has given some Pokemon in OU coverage that has pushed them into brokenness; how much worse would it be when, for example, something could Tera Water and start firing off Hydro Pumps?

I'm happy to hear any thoughts, feedback, or ideas!
Hello Dratios,
I really liked this OM as it was giving more possibilities for below OU Pokémons to shine (Toxtricity + Ice Beam for example). I don't think the amount of TMs really matter, because when you look at it, even with four moveslots given, there is already a ton of possibilities for one moveset. Pokémons like Iron Valiant or Dragapult are already broken enough with their cover so they won't necessarily need a little help. This could even do previous Knock Off users justice (hey there Demeteros-Therian and Toxapex) ; As for Tera-cristallization, I think it should only work with moves that Pokémons normally learn, and my stupid reason is : the fifth move is existing only because a TM is placed in the itemslot :worrywhirl:.






Now for those who didn't see I posted an OM suggestion on page 26 and I'm surely not trying to get attention here.
 
Idk if it has been shared before or not but I am putting this idea here:
Ability Swap
Metagame premise: The abilities of the Pokemon on field (the user and the foe) are swapped.
Potential bans and threats:
:regigigas: no more slow start
:Slaking: no more truant lol probs ban on both
:Salazzle: uhh idk, u can use corrosion to your benefit???
Questions for the community:
Q. Will the gained ability change if the foe has switched?
A. Probably will be kept the same that turn, and be in effect after turn has ended. so say, in a toxapex vs lokix (assuming 1v1), lokix gains regen and pex tinted lens. if lokix switches, say, into a blissey, and pex has used surf, pex will keep tinted that turn and after the turn has ended will switch to natural cure from blissey (while bliss gains tinted). lokix keeps regen btw. but again, it all depends on ease of coding. I will be fine with whatever.
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Looking to potentially revive a Gen 8 metagame I started w/ some friends last gen, Broken Record: in which a Pokemon can hold a TR to get the move it contains as a fifth move. TRs are now TMs in Gen 9, but the premise would still work. But given the more dynamic nature of the metagame now with Tera and lessened recovery, a few questions arise:
- Does the vast amount of new TMs (up to 171 from Gen 8's 100 TRs), even with some that won't be used, make the metagame too volatile?
- How should Tera and "Broken-Recorded" moves interact, if at all? Tera Blast by itself has given some Pokemon in OU coverage that has pushed them into brokenness; how much worse would it be when, for example, something could Tera Water and start firing off Hydro Pumps?

I'm happy to hear any thoughts, feedback, or ideas!
I think the problem with Broken Record is that there just aren't that many options to make it interesting over all the other move based formats specially now that Force of the Fallen took over the 4+ moveslots niche.
I had this idea for a while, but I can't find a concrete banlist or watchlist for this metagame so I'm open for propositions. Here it goes :

Devil's Pressure


Premise : Single Battle 6v6. All moves are bound to a new added PP effect, described as followed :

As usual, Pokémons lose one PP when using a move. Then, depending of the occurence (or not) of the move (for offensive moves) and the effects (for passive moves), another PP can either be consumed or restored by one.

For offensive moves :
- If the move is effective => +1 PP back (so your pokémon gets its PP back)
- "" """ """""" is wasted (doesn't affect the opponent/ no target)/not effective => -1 (so your pokémon loses two PP instead of one)
- "" """ """""" misses => 0 (the Pokémon only loses one PP)


For Statut moves (except healing/boost moves) :
- If the effect happens (ex : stat change, is poisonned/ turned asleep/ paralyzed/ burnt, or the opponent attacks the turn you use Protect) => +1
- "" """ """""" is wasted (Magic Bounce, immunities, Protect used but the opponent doesn't attack, Spikes/Stealth rocks/Leech Seed already set up, already a clone) => -1
- "" """ """""" doesn't happen (miss, Taunt) => 0


For Healing/Boost Statut moves :
- If the healing/boost happens => +1
- "" """ """"""""""""""" is wasted (already full HP/ no target/ already max stat) => -1
- "" """ """"""""""""""" doesn't happen (miss, Taunt, heal block) => 0


Strategy :

In this metagame, you might want to conserve your PP as long as possible, as they decrease faster. Consequently, you might prioritize accuracy rather than power.
Moreover, choice items users should expect more passive plays from their opponent, as Protect-type moves are being even more convenient.


Clauses :

Smogon-wide Clause ;
Spite Clause : Only one Spite user per team allowed.


Ban :

OU Banlist.

Restricted Bans :

Harvest + leppa berry ;
Recycle + leppa berry.


Watchlist :

Moves : Lunar Dance, Wish, Healing Wish ;
Abilities : Pressure, Unaware, Regenerator.


Q&A :

Q1 : Are moves/abilities that reduce PP added to Devil's Pressure ?
A1 + examples : Yes, they are :
1) If a pokémon hits non effectively a Corviknight [Attacks last + Pressure + Spite], it'll lose 7 PP in one turn.
2) A Galarian Slowking [Attacks last + Eerie Spell] can reduce the last opponent's pokémon move by minimum 3 (if the move hits effectively) and maximum 5 PP (if hits non effectively).

Q2 : How would Devil's Pressure work with Metronome/Assist/Copycat/Nature Power/Sleep Talk ?
A2 : The calculation would happen according to the resulting move (unless Taunt was inflicted).

Q3 : How would Devil's Pressure work with n-turns offensive moves ?
A3 : The calculation would happen during the turn of the damages.


Note : for multi-effect statut moves (ex : Swagger), as long as one effect happens, the move is considered not wasted.
I don't think this premise would be interesting enough, the format would most likely play quite similar to OU, and the way PP is either added/removed seems a bit too complex.
Idk if it has been shared before or not but I am putting this idea here:
Ability Swap
Metagame premise
: The abilities of the Pokemon on field (the user and the foe) are swapped.
Potential bans and threats:
:regigigas: no more slow start
:Slaking: no more truant lol probs ban on both
:Salazzle: uhh idk, u can use corrosion to your benefit???
Questions for the community:
Q. Will the gained ability change if the foe has switched?
A. Probably will be kept the same that turn, and be in effect after turn has ended. so say, in a toxapex vs lokix (assuming 1v1), lokix gains regen and pex tinted lens. if lokix switches, say, into a blissey, and pex has used surf, pex will keep tinted that turn and after the turn has ended will switch to natural cure from blissey (while bliss gains tinted). lokix keeps regen btw. but again, it all depends on ease of coding. I will be fine with whatever.
This idea has been rejected a few times already, the problem is that teambuilding on this wouldn't be too interesting, is mostly mons with bad abilities that are good anyway like paradoxes, so the mechanic ends not influencing the games that much as everyone plays like they had no ability.
 
I think the problem with Broken Record is that there just aren't that many options to make it interesting over all the other move based formats specially now that Force of the Fallen took over the 4+ moveslots niche.

I don't think this premise would be interesting enough, the format would most likely play quite similar to OU, and the way PP is either added/removed seems a bit too complex.

This idea has been rejected a few times already, the problem is that teambuilding on this wouldn't be too interesting, is mostly mons with bad abilities that are good anyway like paradoxes, so the mechanic ends not influencing the games that much as everyone plays like they had no ability.
I can't tell if a metagame is more/less fit than another to be submitted, I'm neither a good strategist nor a gen mechanics obsessive fan to begin with, so while I make sure not to post a "commonly rejected" idea, I can't project it in long term, beyond what I imagined. I would sincerely like to understand what type of OM you (and the council of course) would consider "interesting" and not "too complex" at this point, because a lot of OM with simple changes already emerged within the past few years. I don't think I'm the only one wanting to share OM ideas even though the "non-exploited" part of all Pokémon mechanics has been considerably shrinking.
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
I can't tell if a metagame is more/less fit than another to be submitted, I'm neither a good strategist nor a gen mechanics obsessive fan to begin with, so while I make sure not to post a "commonly rejected" idea, I can't project it in long term, beyond what I imagined. I would sincerely like to understand what type of OM you (and the council of course) would consider "interesting" and not "too complex" at this point, because a lot of OM with simple changes already emerged within the past few years. I don't think I'm the only one wanting to share OM ideas even though the "non-exploited" part of all Pokémon mechanics has been considerably shrinking.
There isn't an answer to that, just something that twists how the game is played, you can check the kind of formats that have been approved knowing that a new idea has to be distinct from them and distinct to the regular game, if a format has a rule that doesn't make you play in a different way or make new sets possibles, then is not needed.
 
i'm new here so excuse any mistakes! >.<

RED FLAGS, GREEN FLAGS


Metagame Premise
: If you nickname your Pokémon after a move flag (with the expection of contact), moves with that flag gains a 50% boost to its BP (akin to "Strong Jaw" or "Sharpness"). If you put an exclamation mark (!) after the nickname, it will instead gain a 50% damage reduction against those moves.

Example:

:ss/Heracross: By naming your Heracross "multihit", it can relieve the glorious days of its mega form, as all its multihit moves will gain a 50% bonus to their base power!


:ss/Garchomp: With access to all 3 elemental fangs and Crunch, Garchomp can access stronger coverage than before if you give it the name "bite"!

:ss/Samurott: I don't know how to make this into the Hisuian variety, but if you give your Samurott the name "pivot!", those U-Turns and Volt Switches will hurt way less, allowing you to keep spamming those spikes.

POTENTIAL THREATS
I'm... not sure. This is the part I suck at. I assume things like Gallade and Kleavor, which already have Sharpness and good attack, as well as anything that can apply the flag bonuses to a wide variety of moves like Iron Thorns (multihit) or Gengar (bullet).

Questions for the community:
-What flags should be banned? Because surely there's something other than contact that will be too much.
-If you haven't noticed yet, this metagame will be very matchup dependant - the same set with a different nickname can change a lot. Is that a good thing, you think?
 
I am new, and I come in peace. That means that this idea is one that comes from a place of pure intrigue. As far as I'm concerned, this is not an attempt to "fix" Pokémon, and therefore, I will only look at this from a neutral perspective.

ALSO, WARNING, THIS IS LOOOOOOOONG.

So...

What if Pokémon had NO randomness?

This means that every move will connect, regardless of accuracy. Every secondary condition will proc, no matter what it is. And- Wait, hold on a moment. Here comes a big, big wall of text.

Here comes Consistentmons, a change to the very core mechanics of the game.

Let's start from the top, shall we?

Removing accuracy, first off, means that practically every single mon will have No Guard as an ability. This is, as that may sound, an insane shift to the metagame in potentially unpredictable ways.

Status moves will be guaranteed to hit their para, burn, or what have you. Spore will no longer be the only feasible sleep tool. Fire Blast, Power Whip, Stone Edge, all the super powerful moves will be able to land without much of a downside.

On the other hand, sometimes inaccurate moves have always been nigh-required in meta sets. Rock slide, stone edge, hydro pump, will-o-wisp, these are examples of core essentials to so many Pokémon and their sets.

However, in battle, there's always a possibility that the answer that you've selected will fail. Not this time. Stone Edge is basically a Rock-Type Earthquake. I'll get into critical hit ratios later.

If every powerful move was allowed to exist without the gamble, that would simply mean that the meta of such a change would shift to accommodate for the coveted consistency of moves landing properly.

Now then, before we move on, we need to talk about OHKO moves.

Just ban 'em, if it's that worrying. That clause has always been there.

So, let's now talk about secondary effects.

There is one choice that will likely completely split the new meta down the very middle.

Should secondary effects that employ randomness ALWAYS proc, or NEVER proc?

There are arguments to be made for both sides of the spectrum.

Perhaps it's necessary to keep less powerful moves relevant, if that is an issue that only leads towards slotting in those perfectly-accurate 120 BP moves.

Then again... What about cases like crunch? What if you could stunlock your opponent with guaranteed flinches, or turn flamethrower into will-o-wisp with 90 BP, or thunderbolt into thunder wave with 90 BP?

What about freeze?

Okay, maybe we can leave out status procs.

But in that case, what about chances to lower or raise stats? Should special and physical stats be bounced around constantly? Should Play Rough be the physical equivalent to Mystical Fire? What about defense and special defense drops?

What about Ancient Power?

Again, these choices would flip the very fundamentals of how battles normally go. They'd be consistent in their chaos, yet chaotic in a different way, now.

This is something I would be interested in watching develop, nonetheless.

Personally, I'd choose to have secondary effects always proc. It's more interesting that way.

Let's move onto more fringe cases, like multi-hits and random abilities.

Should multi-hit moves always hit the average number of times? Or should they always max out?

This is where we run into the demon of Consistentmons, Maushold.

Technician Population Bomb becomes a perfectly consistent 300 BP attack, Wide Lens be damned. 99% accuracy be double-damned. This bastard becomes Normal-Type Last Respects, all the time, with 111 speed, and your only hope is to murder the family before it's too late.

Unless it has Focus Sash.

Or gets run on Mono Cla- Oh right.

Guess we should talk about random items.

Maybe that can be a case-by-case basis, or just be removed entirely. Focus Band obviously won't cut it, of course.

Anyways, back to Maushold and Multi-Hits. Perhaps the average is simply the way to go.

What's the average amount of times Population Bomb will hit? 5?

Well, to answer that, we're gonna need to do some statistics. Bear with me here. Population Bomb's first hit will land nine out of ten times.

That's a 90% chance.

The second hit, then, will hit nine out of ten, only after the previous.

We've gone down to 81%.

Where do we draw the line?

73? 66? 59? 53? 48?

Perhaps it should indeed only be five hits. That makes it a 150 BP move on a Pokémon with rather unsavory attacking stats. Breathe a sigh of relief, for the demon is quelled.

So, about random abilities. Are we really going to say that Flame Body, Poison Point, Static, and all the rest should always proc? Should they never proc?

Shoild your wallbreaker or adjacent need to consider Protective Pads, just to keep Volcarona from breakdancing and blasting everything?

Maybe so.

Now that I think about it, we haven't considered moves and items that switch you or your opponents out.

Perhaps it should just follow team order. That way, you can potentially have consistent answers to any hazard whirlwind sets, before they can get too greedy.

Now then, about status. Sleep, Paralysis, and Freeze. Should Paralysis not stun you at all? Or should it always stun?

I think the answer's clear. Sleep should be shaken off as soon as there's even a chance, as should Freeze. Paralysis only serving as a speed nerf still makes it quite strong.

So, what's left? What other random mechanics exist in Pokémon as a competitive game?

Oh, yes, damage rolls! Should everything be on the high roll, low roll, or square in the middle? Having it always hit the average roll would only be logical. But remember, this choice can change matchups and checks, depending on EVs. OHKO rolls and all that.

Okay fine, let's address random critical hits. I know a game with this mechanic all too well, and it's the biggest meme ever.

Crits in Pokémon, from a game design standpoint, is an answer to overly stally teams. If you take too long to kill your opponent, you risk them smacking you with immense damage through your ×4 defense stack.

Then again, you can also crit them.

Or just never do so on either end.

Now how about that, something a bit more complex at play.

Let's consider this, shall we. From a game design perspective, crits are meant to be a great equalizer to long games. Offensive teams hitting a wall will get as much traction as they risk a tank blasting them in the face.

Consider this. A crit can happen with a 1 in 16 chance. Out of 16 moves, one should crit.

This is where I propose an experimental mechanic. On every 16th turn, both parties should gain a guaranteed crit on their next move. If it's a move eith a high critical hit ratio, or if zoom lens and focus energy is used, that could be cut down to 8 or maybe even every 4 turns! With an item and setup, of course.

If their move on the crit turn doesn't deal damage...

Should they lose it?

Or should they keep it stored for later?

What if you stall 16 more turns with no attack? Can you crit twice in a row?

That would go against the core fundamentals of the mechanic. Let's not.

Anyways, that should be all for my little thought experiment. Remember this, I am not a game designer, nor someone with extensive knowledge of the metagame, to the point where I'd be useful in say, a suspect test discussion.

However, I can say for certain that this would be an alternative metagame to think about. Truly, one of the metas of all time.
 
Last edited:

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
I am new, and I come in peace. That means that this idea is one that comes from a place of pure intrigue. As far as I'm concerned, this is not an attempt to "fix" Pokémon, and therefore, I will only look at this from a neutral perspective.

ALSO, WARNING, THIS IS LOOOOOOOONG.

So...

What if Pokémon had NO randomness?

This means that every move will connect, regardless of accuracy. Every secondary condition will proc, no matter what it is. And- Wait, hold on a moment. Here comes a big, big wall of text.

Here comes Consistentmons, a change to the very core mechanics of the game.

Let's start from the top, shall we?

Removing accuracy, first off, means that practically every single mon will have No Guard as an ability. This is, as that may sound, an insane shift to the metagame in potentially unpredictable ways.

Status moves will be guaranteed to hit their para, burn, or what have you. Spore will no longer be the only feasible sleep tool. Fire Blast, Power Whip, Stone Edge, all the super powerful moves will be able to land without much of a downside.

On the other hand, sometimes inaccurate moves have always been nigh-required in meta sets. Rock slide, stone edge, hydro pump, will-o-wisp, these are examples of core essentials to so many Pokémon and their sets.

However, in battle, there's always a possibility that the answer that you've selected will fail. Not this time. Stone Edge is basically a Rock-Type Earthquake. I'll get into critical hit ratios later.

If every powerful move was allowed to exist without the gamble, that would simply mean that the meta of such a change would shift to accommodate for the coveted consistency of moves landing properly.

Now then, before we move on, we need to talk about OHKO moves.

Just ban 'em, if it's that worrying. That clause has always been there.

So, let's now talk about secondary effects.

There is one choice that will likely completely split the new meta down the very middle.

Should secondary effects that employ randomness ALWAYS proc, or NEVER proc?

There are arguments to be made for both sides of the spectrum.

Perhaps it's necessary to keep less powerful moves relevant, if that is an issue that only leads towards slotting in those perfectly-accurate 120 BP moves.

Then again... What about cases like crunch? What if you could stunlock your opponent with guaranteed flinches, or turn flamethrower into will-o-wisp with 90 BP, or thunderbolt into thunder wave with 90 BP?

What about freeze?

Okay, maybe we can leave out status procs.

But in that case, what about chances to lower or raise stats? Should special and physical stats be bounced around constantly? Should Play Rough be the physical equivalent to Mystical Fire? What about defense and special defense drops?

What about Ancient Power?

Again, these choices would flip the very fundamentals of how battles normally go. They'd be consistent in their chaos, yet chaotic in a different way, now.

This is something I would be interested in watching develop, nonetheless.

Personally, I'd choose to have secondary effects always proc. It's more interesting that way.

Let's move onto more fringe cases, like multi-hits and random abilities.

Should multi-hit moves always hit the average number of times? Or should they always max out?

This is where we run into the demon of Consistentmons, Maushold.

Technician Population Bomb becomes a perfectly consistent 300 BP attack, Wide Lens be damned. 99% accuracy be double-damned. This bastard becomes Normal-Type Last Respects, all the time, with 111 speed, and your only hope is to murder the family before it's too late.

Unless it has Focus Sash.

Or gets run on Mono Cla- Oh right.

Guess we should talk about random items.

Maybe that can be a case-by-case basis, or just be removed entirely. Focus Band obviously won't cut it, of course.

Anyways, back to Maushold and Multi-Hits. Perhaps the average is simply the way to go.

What's the average amount of times Population Bomb will hit? 5?

Well, to answer that, we're gonna need to do some statistics. Bear with me here. Population Bomb's first hit will land nine out of ten times.

That's a 90% chance.

The second hit, then, will hit nine out of ten, only after the previous.

We've gone down to 81%.

Where do we draw the line?

73? 66? 59? 53? 48?

Perhaps it should indeed only be five hits. That makes it a 150 BP move on a Pokémon with rather unsavory attacking stats. Breathe a sigh of relief, for the demon is quelled.

So, about random abilities. Are we really going to say that Flame Body, Poison Point, Static, and all the rest should always proc? Should they never proc?

Shoild your wallbreaker or adjacent need to consider Protective Pads, just to keep Volcarona from breakdancing and blasting everything?

Maybe so.

Now that I think about it, we haven't considered moves and items that switch you or your opponents out.

Perhaps it should just follow team order. That way, you can potentially have consistent answers to any hazard whirlwind sets, before they can get too greedy.

Now then, about status. Sleep, Paralysis, and Freeze. Should Paralysis not stun you at all? Or should it always stun?

I think the answer's clear. Sleep should be shaken off as soon as there's even a chance, as should Freeze. Paralysis only serving as a speed nerf still makes it quite strong.

So, what's left? What other random mechanics exist in Pokémon as a competitive game?

Oh, yes, damage rolls! Should everything be on the high roll, low roll, or square in the middle? Having it always hit the average roll would only be logical. But remember, this choice can change matchups and checks, depending on EVs. OHKO rolls and all that.

Okay fine, let's address random critical hits. I know a game with this mechanic all too well, and it's the biggest meme ever.

Crits in Pokémon, from a game design standpoint, is an answer to overly stally teams. If you take too long to kill your opponent, you risk them smacking you with immense damage through your ×4 defense stack.

Then again, you can also crit them.

Or just never do so on either end.

Now how about that, something a bit more complex at play.

Let's consider this, shall we. From a game design perspective, crits are meant to be a great equalizer to long games. Offensive teams hitting a wall will get as much traction as they risk a tank blasting them in the face.

Consider this. A crit can happen with a 1 in 16 chance. Out of 16 moves, one should crit.

This is where I propose an experimental mechanic. On every 16th turn, both parties should gain a guaranteed crit on their next move. If it's a move eith a high critical hit ratio, or if zoom lens and focus energy is used, that could be cut down to 8 or maybe even every 4 turns! With an item and setup, of course.

If their move on the crit turn doesn't deal damage...

Should they lose it?

Or should they keep it stored for later?

What if you stall 16 more turns with no attack? Can you crit twice in a row?

That would go against the core fundamentals of the mechanic. Let's not.

Anyways, that should be all for my little thought experiment. Remember this, I am not a game designer, nor someone with extensive knowledge of the metagame, to the point where I'd be useful in say, a suspect test discussion.

However, I can say for certain that this would be an alternative metagame to think about. Truly, one of the metas of all time.
This existed in the past under the name of Haxmons https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/haxmons-playable-on-aqua.3500287/
You don't qualify to lead a format tho, as your account doesn't have enough posts.
i'm new here so excuse any mistakes! >.<

RED FLAGS, GREEN FLAGS


Metagame Premise
: If you nickname your Pokémon after a move flag (with the expection of contact), moves with that flag gains a 50% boost to its BP (akin to "Strong Jaw" or "Sharpness"). If you put an exclamation mark (!) after the nickname, it will instead gain a 50% damage reduction against those moves.

Example:

:ss/Heracross: By naming your Heracross "multihit", it can relieve the glorious days of its mega form, as all its multihit moves will gain a 50% bonus to their base power!


:ss/Garchomp: With access to all 3 elemental fangs and Crunch, Garchomp can access stronger coverage than before if you give it the name "bite"!

:ss/Samurott: I don't know how to make this into the Hisuian variety, but if you give your Samurott the name "pivot!", those U-Turns and Volt Switches will hurt way less, allowing you to keep spamming those spikes.

POTENTIAL THREATS
I'm... not sure. This is the part I suck at. I assume things like Gallade and Kleavor, which already have Sharpness and good attack, as well as anything that can apply the flag bonuses to a wide variety of moves like Iron Thorns (multihit) or Gengar (bullet).

Questions for the community:
-What flags should be banned? Because surely there's something other than contact that will be too much.
-If you haven't noticed yet, this metagame will be very matchup dependant - the same set with a different nickname can change a lot. Is that a good thing, you think?
This seems like an ok idea, not too exited about it, feels like balancing it may be a lost cause, and not sure if there are enough flags in the game to make it not repetitive.
 

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